A Digital Nomad Lifestyle Could Be Awesome for Retirement

Jerry: Hello and welcome to another episode of Retirement Rovers. Evelyn, what's today's topic?

Evelyn: Well, we're really talking about the dream. And when I talk about the dream, it's a dream for a lot of people, including us, which is the ability to be able to travel to a lot of places, to experience a lot of cultures. And I don't mean like one or two countries. I'm talking about 20, 30 countries, really being able to see the world.

Jerry: I love that dream.

Evelyn: I love it, too. And a lot of people are out there today actually doing it. They're going from country to country. They're earning money as they go and they really are living the dream.

Jerry: Evelyn, are you referring to the nomad lifestyle?

Evelyn: I am, actually. It's a lifestyle that a lot of people are living, and I'm pretty sure our listeners will be interested in hearing about it because it's not just a lifestyle for younger people. It's also something that people in their retirement years are doing and they're finally able to have the freedom to go see the world. So, this really applies to anyone. And we have a guest today, Sam Roberts, who's been living this dream. He's got some great experiences and he's going to be telling us all about them.

Evelyn: Hey, Sam, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm super excited to talk to you. One of the reasons why I'm so excited to talk to you is I'm really interested in this concept of the nomad lifestyle. One of the reasons why Jerry and I started Retirement Rovers is we can't make up our minds on where we'd like to retire.

And I think part of the reason why is because we like too many places, we enjoy traveling. And I'm not sure we'd be ready to just pick one place and just live there. So, this is this is something that I'd really like to explore for us. So, and I know you must have some really fantastic experiences to share. So, I'd love to start out by having you tell us what exactly is a nomad for people who may not be familiar with this.

Sam: Thanks for having me. First of all, it's a pleasure to answer your question. What is a nomad? I think it's just somebody who and it's quite hard to define, but I think it's somebody that lives all over the world, doesn't really have an exact location of what they would call home. So maybe they don't have a mortgage.

I mean, I think the concept of nomad, it goes back centuries, you know, gypsies. And I mean, it's still cultures around the world that still like in Mongolia, they don't really have homes. They just live in tents and basically just make a tent somewhere and then live there. So basically, I would define it as, you know, not really having a certain place that you live. Just live in wherever you want.

Evelyn: Right. And, you know, I've also heard the term digital nomad. And I think those are folks that actually work online and they don't need to be in an office and so they can live wherever they want. Is that something that you do?

Sam: It is. So, I make pretty much all of my money online. So, I have numerous different incomes online. So, yeah, basically it's becoming quite popular now, the whole digital nomad lifestyle thing. And I think it'll become more popular in the future with the recent events.

I think a lot of jobs that were office based are no longer going to be office based anymore. You know, I think certain jobs are going to be done from home. So, yeah, basically that whole digital nomad thing is people who make money online from their computer and they can basically do that from anywhere in the world or any location as long as they've got the Wi-Fi, it's becoming very popular.

Jerry: Sam, I'm curious, what were you doing before you decided to live the digital nomad lifestyle and kind of what was it that made you decide to become a nomad?

Sam: Basically, so I grew up in the north of England. I'm not sure, have you been to the north of England before?

Evelyn: We've been to the London area and traveled a little bit around, but never to the north.

Sam: Yeah. So, I grew up in a very, very small town called Preston, which is very close to Liverpool and Manchester, which are two pretty famous cities. So, I grew up there and it's very much a working-class area. I guess you could compare it to places like maybe Detroit in the United States.

So, it used to have a lot of industry 50, 60 years ago, and now it’s very working class doesn't really have any industry anymore. That's gone to different parts of the world. So quite a working-class background. So, I went to college or university, as I call it, in the UK and got my bachelor's degree in criminology.

My initial goal was to join the police which is why I majored in criminology. And basically I left university and then realized I didn't want to join the police anymore and became a little bit disillusioned, didn't know what to do. Sort of when went off looking to get into the corporate world. Getting the corporate job didn't sync with me. It just didn't feel right to get a job in the corporate world. I think some people, they kind of realize that when they're in the forties that maybe the corporate world is not for me.

But I already knew and I was in my early 20s and so I'd always had this dream of traveling the world. I'd read a few different books of very successful entrepreneurs who had gone traveling in their early 20s, and that inspired them to start that business. I was always inspired to travel the world and that's basically what I did. I left college, went back to live with my parents. Started working in restaurants, started buying and selling cars online, flipping them and making money online and quickly saved up quite a bit of money and then basically just left and went around the world for a number of years.

Evelyn: You know...we're in our early fifties and this type of freedom didn't exist when we were younger, or at least we didn't know about it because it wasn't widely known. You know, we didn't have the Internet as widely as we do today, early on. That sounds so old!

I know it sounds really old. And I know a lot of folks are our age are kind of getting into this. And they're interested in doing this more towards the later part of their life. So that's really exciting for us. I know. How many places have you actually traveled to?

Sam: So, the total number of countries that I have been to is in the 40s right now.

I don't know the exact number. I think it's I think it's about forty-three countries overall. The majority of those are in Asia. I've been I've been to most countries in Asia then a lot of countries in Europe to been to the United States, traveled all over the United States as well. But yeah, never, never really been to South America or Central America, which is somewhere that I'd like to go to in the future.

Evelyn: Awesome...where is actually the first place you went to?

Sam: Well, I'll be honest. When I left college, I went on a J1 visa to the United States. And I worked there for a little bit in New York doing some bartending. And basically, after that, I traveled around much of the United States. So New York, L.A., Oakland, California, Nevada, Arizona, Illinois. All different kinds of places. That was the first country that I went to on my own was the US. And probably the first night I realized I really loved traveling and doing that sort of stuff.

Evelyn: How do you decide where you're going to go next?

Sam: It's usually a gut instinct thing, I would say. Yeah, it really just depends if I feel like it somewhere that interests me or not.

Jerry: And when you're looking at these new locations, I'm curious, how does cost play into this and how does the cost of being a nomad compare to what most people would think of as more traditional lifestyle?

Sam: Ok, so when I would first travel and be a nomad, I would travel off savings I'd made from working jobs. So cost was very important then because I didn't have any money while I was traveling. I would directly go to countries that were very cheap. Now it's not as much of an issue for me because, you know, I make enough money online to basically travel all year and not really have to worry about money.

Obviously still, I still like to go to countries that are more affordable, places like Southeast Asia, places like Thailand and Indonesia, where, you know, things are maybe a fifth as cheap as what they are in the US. And you can live a really great lifestyle with not much money. It still does play a big role in where I go to for sure.

Evelyn: Do you have a favorite place that you just keep thinking about that you love?

Sam: Yeah. So, I really do love Thailand. And I know it's a very popular country to retire to and a lot of Americans live there. And I really love Thailand. I think it's a great place. It's a great culture. It's very different to the West in many, many ways.

But also, Thailand's becoming very developed as well. It's the mixture of the Western convenience and also the Asian culture. And, you know, they get on well. Until last year, they were getting 40 million tourists per year, which is why it's incredible. That's like the same amount Italy would get or maybe a little bit less so it's very popular with tourists.

And it's overall a very friendly country, very affordable and also a great mixture of Asian culture and sort of Western culture as well, mixed into one. I think Thailand is a great place to retire to.

Evelyn: Where have you stayed in Thailand?

Sam: I've stayed all over Thailand, basically everywhere...North, South, Bangkok. I wrote an article for you on Bangkok, which is one of my favorite cities in the world. I've been everywhere, really, in Thailand. So I know it really well. I've spent countless months there.

Evelyn: What do you do when you're in Bangkok or whatever city you're in, and, maybe you get sick. How do you handle the health care situation?

Sam: I've been very lucky when I've been traveling. I've never actually got sick. I've actually been very, very lucky. Basically, I have my travel insurance. And a lot of people who travel or go abroad, they won't really check their travel insurance too much.

A mistake people make is they will get travel insurance that doesn't cover them for motorcycle accidents, for example. So I'll get a pretty comprehensive travel insurance and I'll read through the small print and see what actually covers me for.

And in terms of if I'm in Asia and places like that, then I will have travel insurance, because if you get sick in Thailand and you don't have insurance, you're going to be seriously out of pocket for it. Now, I lived in Australia for a number of years, and for me, Australia has free health care for me because the UK and Australia have an agreement that when one goes to other country, they get free health care. In Australia, I didn't have to think about health care, but usually I'll get a good comprehensive travel insurance.

Evelyn: When you go to a new country, do you seek out areas where there are a lot of expats, or are you more of the mindset to really immerse yourself in the local culture and live amongst where the locals live?

Sam: I would say a bit of both. I think if I am staying somewhere for a long time, I do like there to be an expat community. You know, people I can talk to about American things or British things, you know. But if I'm travelling, just generally travelling, I like to go to places where I'm the only person from the UK. Places like Myanmar, which is a very unknown country in Southeast Asia. Places like that, where you are really out of your comfort zone and there's very few tourists. But if I'm staying somewhere for a long time, then I would rather there be a community of expats.

Jerry: And how long do you usually stay in one place? And then at what point do you wake up in the morning and say, I think it's time to go somewhere else?

Sam: It really depends. I genuinely go off my gut instinct. If I am starting to get a bit bored of a place, I would just leave. It really depends if I really like a city, I can spend months there. And, you know, I wrote about Ho Chi Minh City for your blog, and I lived there for a number of months. So really just depends on how I'm feeling. I just go with my gut instinct and if I feel like it's time to move, I'll go.

Jerry: If you were to take your backpack and spread it out across the room, what are the essential "I can't forget to bring" items?

Sam: Great question.

I would say the biggest essential is this, especially if you travel into countries that don't have the same food hygiene as is the West. So places like India and South East Asia, and I can't remember what the name of it is. But obviously if you get diarrhea, which is common in those countries, if you're eating street food, the tablets where it sort of stops you from having diarrhea, if you know what I mean.

Evelyn: It's very important!

Sam: It's essential if you're travelling outside of, say, Europe, if you're in Asia, then the food hygiene is just not the same. So, you can get sick. I mean, I'm lucky I've never had food poisoning and I've not really had any stomach issues.

But there have been times when I was in India where it happened. So very essential, I think if you're traveling outside of the West and they're a great thing to have and also just have some practical first aid stuff like bandages and alcohol for if you fall over and cut yourself. It's just those sorts of things I think you need.

Jerry: I think you just described my nightmare situation about having diarrhea and then having to take a long bus ride.

Sam: It happens.

Jerry: When you're traveling all over the world, I'm sure at some point in your journeys you probably pause and say, I really miss this about my home country. What are those things that you do miss?

Sam: Of course, the main thing that I miss from the UK is the humor, because the British humor is very unique, very dry, very sarcastic, and almost nobody outside of the UK really gets the British humor very well.

I do have quite a dry British sense of humor, so I would be quite sarcastic sometimes and I will genuinely, I don't know, maybe offend people around the world with my sarcasm. They don't know I'm being sarcastic because I'm very British and I don't know if you know British humor, but we say things in a very, hard to describe it, but it's very unique sense of humor. I do miss that.

Evelyn: I'm a big fan of British humor. I love watching British comedies. And so, I get what you mean. And I think, Jerry, we might be in trouble because we're very sarcastic. You know, I think that runs through our veins. So that's good to know that that doesn't always play well in other cultures.

Sam: Oh, no, it doesn't, especially in Asian cultures, they have what's called one of the big differences in culture between the east and the west. They have a saving face culture, which is very prevalent. And, you know, any form of sarcasm and stuff like that doesn't really go well with their culture. So, yeah, I do miss the British sense of humor when I'm traveling. Absolutely.

Evelyn: Do you read up on anything to do with the culture before you hit a new one? You know, some of those faux pas is that you don't want to do before you land in a new country.

Sam: Yeah, absolutely. I will always read blogs before I go to a country, you know, especially countries that are more adventurous. So places like India, for example, and Myanmar, where there's not many tourists going there. I will do my research, get myself prepared for what's to come.

And I think it's important maybe to do some research before. Some people don't like to do research before they go somewhere, they want to throw themselves into a place. But I do like to kind of get myself ready for it.

Evelyn: Right. That feels a little dangerous to me that, you know, you don't want to hit a foreign land and really offend people the minute you get there.

Sam: Yeah, I think it's just important to know local etiquette. So, you know, in Asia, you never go inside with your shoes on. In Asian culture, it's very rude to walk inside a building, a hotel, with your shoes on. So that's something to be aware.

Evelyn: Do you take your shoes off before you hit the lobby?

Sam: Basically, yeah.

Evelyn: Oh, that's interesting. We've never been to Asia. So that's like one of the areas that we're very unfamiliar with.

Sam: In Asian culture, they won't tell you if you're doing something wrong because they don't like confrontation and they have a saving face culture. So, you will upset them and you won't know. So, it's good to know if you're going to places like Asia, Vietnam, those sorts of countries. Just knowing little things like that which offend them, which they're probably not going to tell you, but it will offend them.

Jerry: So, Sam, you've been to some 40 countries, I'm curious, as you look back, what were a couple of your favorite cultural experiences that you've experienced?

Sam: Yeah, I would say my favorite cultural experience is Japan. Japan is a fascinating country. I think everybody that goes to Japan kind of falls in love with it. It's just very unique. There's nowhere else in Asia like it. There's nowhere else in the world that's quite like it. It's so developed. It's such a prosperous country. It's a very, very wealthy place.

The infrastructure is incredibly above anything we have in the U.S. or the U.K. and they're extremely disciplined people. You know, the food's phenomenal and they're very respectful, too. The weird thing is with Tokyo, it's the biggest city in the world. I think there's a population of around 50 million people.

But it's also one of the quietest places I've ever been to as well, because people in Japan are very respectful. They don't like to make noise; they like to respect everyone else's privacy. Japan is a very unique, fascinating culture. It really is. I highly recommend going to Japan for anyone from America or something like that.

Evelyn: Yeah, I love Japanese culture. We actually had, when I was a teenager, a couple of Japanese exchange students. And they were just as fascinated by some of the things in our culture. we had a community swimming pool and they couldn't believe that people weren't in it, just shoulder to shoulder, because that's how they've experienced swimming pools in Japan. And they were fascinated by the little houses we had for our cars, our garages. And they just thought that was the most amazing thing in the world. I just I loved them. So, I'd actually really love going to Japan.

Sam: Well, one of the really interesting things and it's funny because if you look back on the last year, it kind of plays into a little bit. But when I was there in 2018 in in Japan, if you're sick, so you had a common cold or and any type of illness where you felt maybe a little bit tired, they would wear a mask. They are very conscious, historically, on passing their germs on to other people.

So even before last year, you go on the metro in Tokyo and the people wear masks now I'd wonder, why they wearing masks? And it's because their culture is just so based on respecting other people. It's just like pure that they are a very, very strong community in Japan. It's very much a community culture.

Whereas in the West we're more individualistic in the West, which I find fascinating. But so, yeah, I mean, if you're sick in Japan, you know, even before coronavirus, they were wearing masks.

Evelyn: Well, the germaphobe, me just loves that because that's my thing. I've been a germaphobe for many years and I'm that person on the airplane Cloroxing my table and everything around me. And so, I really do appreciate that part of really looking out for others and not just yourself.

Sam: And I think in Western culture, it's not we don't quite have that community as such, but it's a very fascinating country.

Jerry: I'm curious, is there somewhere that you went to and after a bit of time, you just decided you didn't like it?

Sam: Probably the one place I was a little bit uncomfortable with, I would say, was China. Now I know it's quite popular. People do tend to move there because you can get really high paying English teaching jobs. A lot of Americans live there and they teach English and it's well paid. But obviously, as in China, there is that whole censorship thing.

And so, if you travel to China, you're not allowed to use any sort of media from outside China. So, you're banned from using Google, you can't use WhatsApp, you can't use any social media, YouTube, basically anything that's not Chinese Internet approved, you can't use it.

After a while, it became very annoying. So, I mean, it's a great place to travel. It's a very interesting culture. But there are a few things in China like the complete lack of English. Nobody outside Beijing and Shanghai can really speak English. And obviously to not have the freedom to go and do what you want on the Internet as well. I mean, you can use a VPN, but you're not technically supposed to do that so that got a little bit tiring. After a month in China, I was ready to move on.

Evelyn: Yeah, that makes sense. I think that would be isolating, especially if you're a digital nomad anyway and you have a harder time keeping track of friends and family as you're traveling.

Any examples of things that were shocking, like you got to a place that was above and beyond your expectations or crazy or any kind of moments like that?

Sam: Well, I would say the first culture shock that I ever had was traveling to India. I landed in Delhi, the capital of India, which is this huge city of 30 million people. It makes London and New York seem small.

Just landing in Delhi and just walking outside the airport and there just being thousands of people just standing around. Half of them looking at me, because if you have white skin in India, not in a rude way, but they look at you. They stare at you because the staring is not rude in their culture. It's sort of like, OK, to stare at people.

So, when you first land in India and you walk into Delhi and you just get stared at...it's kind of like being Brad Pitt walking through Los Angeles. So that was a big culture shock for me. And some of them would even come up to you and say, can you hold my baby and we want to take a picture of you holding the baby? And it's literally like being a celebrity. On the first day in Delhi, I walked around on my own.

I didn't meet anybody in the hostel, so I just went off on my own and walked around. And I think I counted five people in six hours that were from maybe America or the U.K. And so that was really like completely throwing yourself out of your comfort zone. And then in India, you've got all the sound. It's extremely loud, so many cars, so many things going on.

It's just really great if you want to really throw yourself out there and go somewhere that is completely different to America or the UK. Go to India.

Jerry: We will maybe do that based on some of your comments. That might make the list, or maybe not. If you don't mind. I'd love to know, as you sum up your experiences so far, what do you like best about the digital nomad lifestyle and what are some of the things you like the least?

Sam: So the digital nomad lifestyle...I like the freedom. I think the freedom of being able to work whatever you want in the world. And I think it's fantastic just to be able to, if you work online, be able to open your computer and make money from anywhere with an Internet connection. I think the biggest drawback of the digital nomad lifestyle is the lack of structure in your life.

I think in life it's good to have stable friendships with people. And if you're a nomad, it's very difficult to make stable friends because you're always moving. And I think that's a big, big downside of being a nomad. And also, obviously, you don't see family for a long time. I think there is a time where the normal things in life that make you happy, like the friends, the family and the structure of having a routine becomes difficult when you're a nomad.

Evelyn: Well, it sounds like maybe introverts would enjoy the nomadic lifestyle, those folks that don't need that connection with friends.

Sam: I mean, there's these great spaces in most countries now called co-working spaces. And it's basically like a massive office for digital nomads. And they have them all over the world. You can go in there and meet people...other digital nomads. So that's what I do when I'm traveling.

I've never been lonely traveling because you can just go and stay in a hostel and meet a bunch of people traveling. But if you spend, say, six months in the US and then travel for six months around the world, I guess you get the best of both worlds. But if you're somebody who moves to Asia for years and travels a lot, you may miss that structure.

Jerry: As you were talking, I was wondering, and Sam I'm going to get very personal here for a moment, but I guess it would be difficult if you meet that significant other on your journeys. And then if that's the lifestyle, I guess at some point you decide, are you going to travel together or not? So that I never thought of that.

Sam: Yeah, 100 percent. So that's a really big drawback as well of being a nomad. Because if you meet somebody, he or she has to be living the same lifestyle as you.

So, you know, I've met people when I've been traveling that were not living the nomadic lifestyle. So, you know, it wouldn't work if they're working in a normal job and living a normal lifestyle and you're off around the world for six months a year. I think if you live in the nomad lifestyle, your significant other has got to be doing the same thing as well. Otherwise, it's not going to work.

Jerry: And so, if someone came to you and they asked for advice and because they were considering being a digital nomad, what are some things or recommendations or advice that you'd give them?

Sam: I would say if you've got a burning desire to travel the world, do that first. See if you enjoy traveling and then maybe from there, see if you want to make money online and start living around the world. I think for a lot of people, it's not for them. I think it's a certain personality type, somebody who likes to be free and be all over the world.

Sam: I mean, it's becoming more popular with the rise of Instagram, YouTube, online companies that have people living this lifestyle. But I think it's a certain person that would do that and be happy doing it. I think just first go and travel around the world, go and travel in Europe, go backpacking in Europe, see if you enjoy it, and then go from there.

Evelyn: As I think about it, I think the uncertainty of where you're going to be living, trying to find that place that you're going to be staying - there's a lot of little details that you have to plan for. That would be interesting. But again, to your point, if you like structure, if you like routine, then maybe this is not the lifestyle for you.

Sam: Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I mean, if you want to live a comfortable lifestyle where you have your pension or the 401k in the US, I mean, if you want that sort of lifestyle where you've got a definite paycheck and you've got a very comfortable path to retirement, it's just not for you.

I think you've got to have a bit of an entrepreneur at heart and you've got to want to live life in an unconventional way. You've almost got to want to not live a nine to five lifestyle. There has to be an underlying drive for you to live this lifestyle otherwise you probably be happy just getting a normal job.

Evelyn: And yeah, now I think a lot of us at this age range, in this time of our life, we look back and say, "Hey, we're looking for something different." So I know a lot of people are going to be very interested to hear this fascinating conversation, because it's something that is a possibility for a lot of us, you know, entering the I don't want to say latter stages of our lives. That sounds really depressing, but maybe the time of our lives where we don't have the children to take care of and we can be a little bit more free.

Jerry: I loved the conversation. Sam, if anyone would like to know more about you and your journey, do you have a blog or social pages that they could follow you on?

Sam: Sure. I do have a blog which have only really started in the last couple of months. And it's called the Running Traveler.

I've started writing about a lot of my travel stories and obviously I am a freelance writer as well. I do a lot of writing for different blogs and companies. So, I've started trying to build a blog and create some interesting content on there from my travels.

I also have a YouTube channel which is under my name, Sam Roberts, and it has last time I checked, just over 2000 subscribers. I loved making videos when I travelled and covid-19 basically means I can't travel and make videos. Basically, I'm just waiting to be able to travel again and then go back on the road and make some videos.

Evelyn: Thank you, Sam. I very much appreciate your time. I'm so glad we were able to talk to Sam today, that was a great interview.

(Sam exits interview)

Jerry: I loved a lot of his advice and it was really cool hearing from someone that's gone out and lived this digital nomadic lifestyle.

Evelyn: Yeah. And, you know, it's funny because I kept thinking about when we go and we check out new countries, Europe was always at the top of my mind. And when he was talking about Japan, I really felt like that’s somewhere I'd like to be because I really have loved the Japanese culture for most of my life, but I never really thought about going there together with you and really spending a lot of time there.

Jerry: I will have to admit Japan has not always been on the top of my list. But after hearing a lot of the things that Sam said today, it really has shot up towards the top.

Evelyn: I was so interested in it, especially when he was talking about the cultural etiquette of Asia. And so, for Japan specifically, I went and I looked at some of the other things that people might want to keep mind of if they ever go to Japan. And there's a couple of really interesting ones. One, it is a faux pas to accept a gift when it's first offered.

Jerry: Really?

Evelyn: Yeah. And actually, the giver is expected to offer it multiple times and it's usually about three times. And I think it would be considered rude if you would just accept it right away. So that I think is really interesting because that's very different from our culture. Another interesting one was that blowing one's nose in public is a faux pas.

Jerry: Uh-oh...I'm in deep trouble!

Evelyn: When you land, you enter a new culture. The first thing you don't want to do is just commit these faux paws. And in a way, you're representing your country and your own culture. And so I like to be careful. So the next one, moving on. Tipping is rarely practiced in Japan and can be considered an insult. And this is the interesting part of it to me, there are certain cases where it's OK, such as tipping your surgeon for an operation now. I find that so fascinating because here, tipping obviously is something we do every day, but we would never think of tipping our surgeon.

Jerry: Definitely not.

Evelyn: Yeah. So, when we go to Japan and I'm saying when because now that's in my mind. I'm going to plan for this trip at some point. But when we go to Japan, we'll have to look more into this.

Jerry: And hopefully we won't have to tip a surgeon.

Evelyn: Fingers crossed!

Ok, so another thing that I thought was a great discussion was when we were talking about the pros and cons and Sam mentioned stability and the need for stability. And I was thinking about myself because I am a very habitual person.

I have my habits and my routines, and I really am attracted to this idea of traveling here and there because I think it would really get me out of my personal comfort zone. I know you are much less so this way than I am. Another topic I thought was great when Sam was talking about it was the fact that he is a digital nomad and he has multiple streams of income coming in throughout the year to support his travel.

In fact, I actually think that we should probably do a blog or another podcast about ways that you can make money online if you're interested in being a digital nomad. There are many ways and just off the top of my head, I think of, you know, some people set up blogs and they monetize them. Some people do travel photography.

There is a website out there called Upwork, and you can actually bid on jobs like, if you're talented in writing, programming, design, graphic design, those types of things. And so, there are a multitude of ways that you can make money online out there. And I think that is interesting because for retirees, if you don't have it or if you don't want to get into your retirement savings to fund everything, it's a great way to supplement those retirement savings.

Jerry: Definitely. And in fact, Sam wrote a few articles for us in our blog.

Evelyn: He did. That's how we met Sam is we posted a need for some blogs and he wrote them for us.

Jerry: And they were great.

Evelyn: Yeah, they were fantastic. He did Ho Chi Minh City and Bangkok. If you happen to be on RetirementRovers.com, check them out.

Well, I think that's going to wrap up today's episode. We loved talking with Sam. We learned a lot and please make sure to check out his blogs.